Episode 14 - Integrative Approach To Cancer Treatment with Dr. John Hall, PhD

In this episode, Dr. John Hall, Director of Research at The Beljanski Foundation, shares insights on the foundation’s research focused on prostate cancer.

Over his 19-year tenure, the research has largely centered on the anti-cancer properties of plant extracts such as Pao Pereira and Rauwolfia Vomitoria. These extracts have shown promising results in inhibiting the growth of prostate cancer cells, both in laboratory settings and clinical trials.

The conversation delves into the history of this research, its successful outcomes, particularly in combination with chemotherapy, and the future direction of studying the effects on cancer stem cells. This episode also highlights the potential of integrating natural extracts with conventional cancer treatments to reduce side effects and improve efficacy.

Key Discussions:
🔍 Advanced Prostate Cancer Research
📜 Success Stories and Clinical Trials
🌿 Exploring Plant Extracts for BPH
💉 Synergy with Chemotherapy
👨‍🔬 Future Research Directions

Tune in here: https://www.beljanski.org/beljanski-cancer-talk-show/episode-14-integrative-approach-to-cancer-treatment-with-dr-john-hall-phd

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Chapters

• 1:23 00:21 Introduction
• 2:31 Early Research on Prostate Cancer
• 5:09 Success Stories and Clinical Trials
• 7:22 Exploring Plant Extracts for BPH
• 10:29 Synergy with Chemotherapy
• 14:10 Prostabel: an exceptional and patented formula to support prostate health.
• 15:32 Advanced Prostate Cancer Research
• 19:07 Mechanisms of Action and Selectivity
• 24:59 Future Research Directions
• 33:54 Q&A and Conclusion

Transcript

Introduction and Welcome

Sylvie Beljanski: Hello, Dr. Hall! Can I call you Dr. John? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes, please do. Hi, Sylvie! 

Sylvie Beljanski: So, you have been the Director of Research at The Beljansky Foundation now for many years. Would you share with us with, for how many years? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Oh, sure. I guess it's, I think it's 19 now, I think. 

Sylvie Beljanski: 19 years, yes. 

Early Research on Prostate Cancer

Sylvie Beljanski: So, one of the, actually the first project we started to work on at the time you joined was prostate cancer, right?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes

Sylvie Beljanski: And we were speaking at the time with Columbia University, if I do remember well. And a lot have been done since that. Since this initial research with Columbia University. Would you mind to share with us and with the audience what happened and why we focused on, on prostate cancer to start with?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Well, one of the main reasons is that it's a very common cancer in men. It's a high risk cancer. Men get this cancer and they struggle to find the right treatments for it. There are many modalities out there. And if well handled, diagnosed early, the pathway can be relatively good. But there are also cases where the cancer advances and it becomes an advanced prostate cancer.

And there are treatments needed at all of the levels, early, mid, and late. And our goal was to explore the use of natural products, specifically plant extracts, developed by Mirko Beljanski at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, France. And he discovered that the activity of these plant extracts included anti-cancer effects.

So, they inhibit proliferation of cancer cells and at Columbia, we found that they indeed inhibit proliferation of prostate cancer cells. These are very nice experiments done in Dr. Aaron Katz's lab some years back, and they're very successful both in cells, prostate cancer cells studied in the laboratory and in animals, these are mice that have prostate cancers given to them by the laboratory technicians, and then the animal can be treated with the extracts to find out what's the fate of the cancer under the influence of the extracts.

And indeed, both in the cell based and the animal-based experiments, we saw inhibition of growth of the cancers in cells and shrinking of tumors of the prostate tumors in the animals. So, altogether that's a successful program. We learned a lot about this. It was kind of a, the startup of these kinds of experiments in the United States. 

Success Stories and Clinical Trials

Sylvie Beljanski: Yeah, I remember the first meeting with Dr. Katz at Columbia University and he was rolling his eyes because I told him about this story about Francois Mitterrand was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer and Mitterrand, I mean the official doctor of the French White House said that Mitterrand was not going to finish his second term.

Terms were seven years at the time. And Mitterrand had a mistress. It's a French story. So Mitterrand had a mistress. As a mistress, he knew of a good doctor who had good results on prostate cancer. And that's how Mitterrand started to take my father's products. And that's how Mitterrand was finally able to finish his second term against all odds.

And that, I remember that was really something that captivated the attention of Dr. Aaron Katz, and I was like a prostate should be a prostate, whether it is attached to a president or not, the story is not more relevant or important because it was, it is a president of France. But, anyway, he decided to give a chance to those plant extract, plant extracts.

And after he had completed the research you just mentioned, he went on with a small clinical trial that never got published actually because it, in a way, it was too successful. The men did not want to come back for a second biopsy. Can you tell us more about that? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes, at that time, and this goes back to a few years as you mentioned, it wasn't possible to set up a clinical trial at a place like Columbia University Medical Center that focused on cancer if you were using plant extracts, the natural products. It just wasn't on the table. It wasn't an option. 

Exploring Plant Extracts for BPH

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Katz and I had the idea of treating the very common condition called BPH. It's Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia, and that swollen prostate, which is a common problem in men as they age, causes urinary symptoms that are quite frustrating and really cause problem of life issues, quality of life issues.

This inflammatory condition was what the trial actually looked at, and we sought to see what the combination of the two extracts, they were put together at this point. And I should say that 1 of them is called Pao Pereira. The other is Rauwolfia Vomitoria, and they’re extracts in the 1st case of a bark of a tree that grows in the Amazon rainforest.

And so they're exotic in that sense, but, and the 2nd Rauwolfia is from a shrub that grows more widely and the root bark is used and Beljanski (Dr. Mirko Beljanski) had figured out how to make extracts that optimize the beneficial activities, the anti cancer activity, for example, without including or bringing along any of the toxicity that could happen when you just make crude extract of a plant.

So, these extracts were very carefully made and in the trial conducted, the men had BPH, as I said, and this combination of extracts proved to be very successful at dealing with this problem. So, the extracts were taken over the course of a year in a dose escalation design, meaning that there's a group of men at a lower dose and there's intermediate doses, it increases, and finally there's the highest dose.

All of the men tolerated this extract combination extremely well, which was delightful to, to know because it gave us more evidence than we'd had previously about the safety of these extracts. It's possible to take them for a year, oral doses, they're capsules, and there were no reported adverse events or problems with the meds.

So, it was healthy to take these and, indeed, the BPH was resolved in most of these cases. What, that wasn't, that was a surprising result, we weren't looking for that. But when we're looking for the effect on PSA, which is a marker for both inflammation and cancer in men. And when the PSA is up, that's one of the indicators that makes a urologist say, “Hey, wait a minute, what's going on in that prostate? Could there be, is it inflammation or could there be a cancer?” 

And they've got to make a diagnosis by doing additional tests. So, lowering PSA is also very desirable and the extracts did that in all the subjects in the trial. But as I said, we were delighted and I'm pleased to find that the anti-inflammatory effect of the extracts was firmly established in this study because the men improved their BPH, symptoms were reduced, they're more comfortable, they could go to the bathroom more easily with better streams and more control. It was a success story, including a human clinical trial. It wasn't on cancer, but it proved to be very informative anyway. 

Synergy with Chemotherapy

Sylvie Beljanski: And when, when you were, doing this research with Columbia University, you also tested, had the, Pao Pereira and Rauwolfia Vomitoria, I believe, tested to see the synergy with chemotherapy, Docetaxel, is that right?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: That's right. That's what was done with the Rauwolfia extract and what Katz found was, and I should also mention Debbie Bemis, who was the primary scientist who did this work in the laboratory. They found that you could take a very well known chemotherapy drug called Docetaxel and get a beneficial effect by combining it with the plant extract.

And the highest level of killing of the cancer cells was with the combination. Partly Rauwolfia, part Docetaxel. One of the things we're also thinking about that time is the possibility that the combination would enable a dose reduction effect of the more toxic Docetaxel drug. And that's, of course, one of the main side effects.

One of the main problems with chemotherapy is the damaging side effects that are caused by the death of healthy cells that happen to be rapidly growing and those side effects can be quite devastating. If you have an extract combination, combined with the drug. We started to see the possibility for dose reduction effect, and that means you didn't have to use quite as much of the chemo drug to get the same level of anticancer effect.

So, this was cluing us into the importance of combining the extracts with traditional mainstream chemotherapy regimens. And that's been done successfully for many patients since that time. And it was further research, I should say, at Kansas University Medical Center. With both extracts for different types of cancer, in that case, pancreatic cancer and ovarian cancer. These dose reduction effects with Carboplatin in one case and Gemcitabine in the other were marked, they were remarkable.

And so we have a history of establishing, we can combine the extracts with traditional medicine, and that's an integrative approach, you're taking the best of both, and putting them together and getting a benefit by having the extract there. 

Sylvie Beljanski: Yeah, there are a number of doctors out there who are using low dosage of chemotherapy and by combining those plant extracts with low dosage of chemotherapy, they could have actually the same efficacy as a higher dosage of chemotherapy without the side effects. Is that what you're saying? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes, exactly. That's extremely desirable way to go about cancer. It's a big improvement over straight chemo by itself.

Sylvie Beljanski: That's for sure. That's for sure. A lot of people are complaining that the treatment is, I mean, conventional treatments are sometimes worse than the disease itself. So, it's good to know that there are ways to, other ways and the toxic ways to address the disease. You, so that's, we spoke about anti-inflammatory, PSA, pre-cancerous stage.

What did the research show about cancer itself? 

Advanced Prostate Cancer Research

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes, we were fortunate to be able to connect with a young scientist while we worked at Columbia named Dr. Jun Yan. He was affiliated with Dr. Katz's group, and when he finished his postdoc at Columbia, he went back to China, to Nanjing University, and started his own laboratory for conducting research and he was captivated by these natural plant extracts.

He was very interested in trying them in his own lab on some variants of cancer, prostate cancer in specific, specifically. So, he did a wonderful paper, a wonderful research project on advanced prostate cancer. And he showed that in this case, the Pao Pereira extract was effective against these cancers which are known as hormonal, androgen independent.

And one of the things that happens in the course of prostate cancer, if it becomes advanced, the treatment method is take a castrating. It's called chemical castration, meaning you just absolutely obliterate the levels of testosterone in the man, because testosterone can have the effect of helping the cancer to grow.

It's prostate cancer cells, it's a hormonally regulated tissue, and testosterone can boost the growth of the cancer. So, in order to slow that get rid of getting rid of their testosterone is the primary goal of that there. Androgen deprivation therapy it’s called. And he found that in those cancers, which no, then what happens is over time, the sensitivity to those androgen deprivation drugs is lost, which means that the cancer starts to progress again and advance again.

And that tool of anti-hormone is no longer available, it doesn't work. That's often after a few years, but it's routine that the effect of the anti-hormone treatment is lost. And what he found is that the Pao Pereira, this is Dr. Yan, in his laboratory at Nanjing University, found that the Pao Pereira extract was active against those androgen independent cancers.

That was a PC3 cell line, which is known to have those characteristics. And the extracts that extract was successful against it. It inhibited the growth and those experiments were studied both in in cells and animals. 

Sylvie Beljanski: What is conventionally offered to those men when hormonal treatment doesn't work anymore, if you don't have the Pao Pereira?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yeah, there's not much. There are not many options there. And that's why there's been a big problem with treating those guys. It's very difficult, once this anti-hormone approach is lost, because in many cases, the men are stuck living out the time they have before the cancer takes over.

Sylvie Beljanski: Actually, that could have the potential to to help a lot of those men who are sent home with not a lot of hope, knowing that this Pao Pereira extract could still be efficient at inhibiting the growth. How would you say, inducing apoptosis? 

Mechanisms of Action and Selectivity

Sylvie Beljanski: Do we know, do we have the mechanism of action? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: It is anti proliferative, so they prevent cell division and growth of the population of tumor cells.

Sylvie Beljanski: So, the mechanism of action is established?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes. And I should add in more detail, they actually induce a process called apoptosis in these cancer cells. So, the prostate cancers undergo a form of cell death, which is induced by the extract. And that cell death is programmed into our genetics. All of our cells have the ability to commit suicide, if you will. They can self destruct.

And if you could push that button to trigger that self destruction, in a cancer cell specifically, you have a wonderful anti-cancer method. It's a wonderful mode of treatment because it's selective inhibition of apoptosis.

As we were finding out in all of the experiments I've been talking about, the extracts are well tolerated. They're not toxic to other cells in the body. So, men who are taking this can go about their lives without suffering side effects of any kind and live their lives. But normally, while they're getting this anti-cancer effect, which is killing the cancer cells, as I said, by this special process called apoptosis.

But I want to add, that's a very desirable goal. It's widely sought for, and many cancer agents do induce apoptosis. And so we were partaking of a very fundamental anti-cancer approach there, and the extracts are working in that pathway. 

Sylvie Beljanski: When you say selectively, you mean that it's not affecting healthy cells.

You are saying that those extracts are able to make a difference between a healthy cell and a cancerous cell? How does that work? How do they make the difference? Does a cancerous cell change color or what? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Not exactly. There are chemical differences in cancer cells. And we now understand that these extracts, as you were just saying a moment ago, distinguish a healthy cell from a cancer cell, and they can have their anti-cancer effect just in the cancer cell. So, they do not induce cell death in normal cells.

There also is a history of some studies that your father did showing that there was preferential entry of the Pao Pereira active ingredients and the anti-cancer compound that's in the extract seems to get into cancer cells more easily, more efficiently than it does into healthy cells. Quite apart from that, which is a good, it's a first barrier there's also this selective action of the drug in the cell itself and there's altered structures in there, including damaged DNA, which we're very actively researching now, but now down in more detail, exactly the chemical pathway that the extract uses to, to target these cancer cells so specifically. 

Sylvie Beljanski: At the beginning of the talk, you told us about two extracts were Pao Pereira but also Rauwolfia Vomitoria from Africa. And what about Rauwolfia Vomitoria? Does it show the same selectivity of action? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Absolutely. That's a very important point. They, both of those extracts and their active ingredients, if you will, share this selectivity or this specificity. And this is a remarkable fact. These natural products, that is something we're still trying to make the world aware of. It's something that, it's just a great approach to cancer, if you can do this without the kind of side effects that are so normally seen with many kinds of drugs, but chemotherapy drugs in particular. 

Sylvie Beljanski: And you, mentioning those universities, so generally univer, you academic, the people working in universities are willing to publish a lot. It's publish or perish in those words, so to, to get that. Did all those studies get published?

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Oh, absolutely! The Columbia work was published, the work from China's been published all in very good peer review journals. It's a good collection of papers have been generated and, more recently, we have focused on prostate inflammation. We've gone back to that. We've got, I told you about the clinical trial at Columbia, which would really reveal the anti-inflammatory effects in BPH of the extracts.

And in that case, we used a combination of the extracts. And to go back to your question, Sylvie, one of the things we were learning early on was that the two extracts both are selective, but they don't act in exactly the same way. They have some discrete characteristics. So there was a benefit to combining it.

And we actually did the research showing that the combination is it's called synergistic meaning it's more than just an additive combination. You actually get a, an extra benefit, if you will, from having the two together And that's, hence, those two the Pao Pereira and Rauwolfia Vomitoria have been combined in many cases, for many people who are interested in handling their cancer in this natural approach.

Sylvie Beljanski: And all those publications are available on the website of The Beljanski Foundation, right? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Absolutely! Beljanski dot org. And they're all there, and there's quite a few of them, particularly if you add all the other studies we've done in addition to the prostate.

Future Research Directions

Sylvie Beljanski: And what, so what is the next step for prostate cancer research at The Beljanski Foundation? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Let me allude to one other recent study we have underway which is called a breast cancer stem cell. It's a cancer stem cell approach and we're going to take that into prostate. That's our intent now.

And why is that important? What are these stem cells? As I said, they're cancer stem cells, so they're not the kind of healthy stem cells that are now exciting doctors because of their potential for tissue renewal or repair. It's not cosmetics or heart, like a heart improvement. It's actually a cancer stem cell.

So, they have some of the properties of the healthy stem cells, which is the ability to persist and survive and continue to divide and differentiate. But they're cancer cells and they are thought to be responsible for the persistence of cancers in spite of treatment. In fact, the cancer stem cells are the ones that turn out to be resistant to the drugs that are often used. Chemotherapy drugs, for example. 

And one of the main problems in cancer treatments is called drug resistance. And it's the cancer stem cells that give that property to the tumor. The cancer stem cells are a small population of the cells in the tumor, but those are the ones that can withstand the treatment, whether it's chemo, chemotherapy, or radiation therapy, for example.

There's still some of these cells that hang around, and that happens even if there is a remission. So, if the rounds of treatment that are done initially put the patient in a remission, which means the cancer is quieted down, is no longer actively dividing, the tumor's not growing. And they can live for some years.

Sometimes that remission can last quite a while, sometimes not so long, but it also is bound to happen, sooner or later, that that cancer reoccurs. That recurrence is caused by the cancer stem cells, because as I said, they survive the original treatment and they may be, it's as if they're hiding out for a while, but they can start over time to proliferate again and form new tumors, in particular, at different sites in the body.

So it's no longer a prostate. That prostate cancer is now through the activity of the cancer stem cells. It's now, for example, in the bone, which is a common metastatic lesion for prostate cancer patients. 

Victor Dwyer: And is there a reason to take one extract over another or do you always take them together?

What is your best practices when it comes to taking these extracts to help, help with this cancer reduction. 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: I think the combination that I've said is really very valuable. And I think that would often be the recommendation for people who are confronting cancer. But there are some cases, for example, with brain cancer.

The active ingredient in that Pao Pereira extract crosses the blood brain barrier, whereas the larger molecule in Rauwolfia Vomitoria does not. So, there's no point if you're targeting a brain cancer to take the Rauwolfia. It's the Pao Pereira that's wanted. I think there's some other examples of that, but the combination is very felicitous. It's a great way to go for many, many types of cancer.

Victor Dwyer: So, for prostate, you would recommend taking most of them? If that's the case. 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: I would. That combination of the two Pao Pereira and Rauwolfia Vomitoria. 

Victor Dwyer: Cool.

Sylvie Beljanski: And for those who are familiar with herbs and Ayurvedic medicine and have known already about Rauwolfia Vomitoria, it's important to, to say that the Rauwolfia Vomitoria extract we are speaking about doesn't include any Reserpine. It's a highly purified extract, which is Reserpine-free. So the toxicity, which is associated with the Reserpine is no longer there.

Dr. John, we have an extract, which seems to have anti-inflammatory, which have extracts I should say. We have anti-inflammatory properties. We have anti-cancer properties who have shown to work in synergy with chemotherapy, who are still effective on advanced prostate cancer, which do not respond to hormonal treatment, who are selective to cancerous cells, do not, have no toxicity to healthy cells.

And you are going to look in the future if they are effective against cancer stem cells, is that right? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: That's right. And I began by saying that we're now doing an experiment for breast cancer stem cells. But for us, the next step is to go to prostate and do the prostate cancer stem cell experiment, which is a somewhat more complex attack on the problem because it's not just straightforward cell based and animal based to get a tumor in the animal and then give them extracts and see what happens.

You actually have, what we've done this work with Dr. Chen at Kansas University Medical Center. And in that case, you have, this is the challenge is purifying, and identifying and purifying the cancer stem cells themselves.

You've got to find those cells and there's ways to do that, which are very elegant in the laboratory. And it's not, then you can study their activity. And you can treat those isolated cells with the extracts and see if you have activity at, specifically against cancer stem cells.

And then in animals, you can inject those cells in to see if the extracts will subsequently affect the rates of tumor formation and tumor growth. So, it's a great set of experiments, which is really addressing, it's the leading edge issue, this cancer stem cell thing. As I said, it's a real problem in cancer because, if you could treat a cancer with any number of methods and, particularly these extracts we're talking about are very desirable because they're not toxic, they're selective.

But the problem is with many therapies out there that the cancer comes back. It's as simple as that. And if extracts like this that we have seen activity against cancer stem cells in the past, if they work against breast cancer stem cells and prostate cancer stem cells, I think that's a major advance for the cancer treatment world. It's something that's really important. 

Sylvie Beljanski: You say you have seen effect on cancer stem cells in the past. Can you tell us more about, about it? What you have seen? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Yes. That goes off to pancreatic cancer, for example, where Dr. Chen at Kansas studied pancreatic cancer stem cells and the effect of both the extracts, the Pao Pereira and Rauwolfia Vomitoria, on those cancer stem cells in the pancreas. And true enough, true to form, she found that the extracts are specifically active against the cancer stem cells, and that they do indeed inhibit the defining character of the cancer stem cells, which is to initiate the formation of new tumors and the growth of those tumors.

So, we do have experience with pancreatic cancer stem cells, and those data are also published, and that is a real prompt for us to expand the kind of study to these very common cancers like breast and prostate. 

Sylvie Beljanski: So, when do you expect to have results on breast cancer stem cells? And I assume, if all goes well, and if The Beljanski Foundation receives the proper funding, of course, start a study on prostate cancer stem cells.

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Those experiments are moving along. They're underway. I spoke with Dr. Chen just a couple of weeks ago, and she gave a positive report to date, but to finish those experiments will certainly, the earliest they could be done is at the end of the summer or the fall. So, it does take time to do these things.

And so it's going to be a while longer there. And then as soon as we can raise the money, I think we'll be moving on to prostate. We're eager to do that. I think it's. It's a high agenda issue for us, so we'd like to be able to do it as soon as we can.

Q&A and Conclusion

Victor Dwyer: The, with the prostate cancer when they basically, basically take away the prostate or take away the testosterone.

Dr. John Hall, PhD: It’s an antihormone therapy.

Victor Dwyer: Anti. Sorry. Sorry. Antihormone therapy. Yes.

Sylvie Beljanski: Yeah.

Victor Dwyer: My question to you was after that treatment is done, do you get a supplemental amount of testosterone or is the, are the people now functioning without testosterone anymore after that treatment?

Sylvie Beljanski: Yeah. Generally, they are chemically castrated and so no, no more testosterone and they linger in that state with side effects, breast growing and things like that until actually the cancer comes back because removing the testosterone is not a way to definitely address the cancer. It just a way to mitigate cancer, to try to stop it, but it doesn't kill the cancer. And, at some point, cancer comes back and takes over. 

Victor Dwyer: It seems like a very big side effect. Like, I feel like, cause you know how men talk about like after being 30, like their testosterone going down and then them feeling being unmotivated.

It seems like after that treatment, it seems you would have a significant mood impact. 

Sylvie Beljanski: Oh, definitely! Definitely. It means all, a lot of effects linked to their manhood and their identity is physically and it's emotionally or extremely difficult because our hormones affect much more than actually our bodies.

It's affects who we are, our place in the society, our relationships, a lot of things. Plus, in fact, they start to grow a belly, to grow breasts. Yeah it's a very difficult therapy to, to go through. 

Victor Dwyer: Yeah. And it seems it's really nice because people usually only get there most likely because they're out of options.

And it's really nice that there are potential option that Beljanski offers that are like, maybe can't necessarily replace that therapy, but it can provide another option out there. So, rather than going through a big transition, because obviously, once that happens, that's a huge transitional period for these people.

And it seems like there's, it's really nice to have other options out there, rather than people being stuck with either that or chemotherapy. So, I think that's really, really amazing that there are other options out there. Yeah. And yeah, that's all we have time for. Dr John, thank you so much for joining.

How can people get in touch with you if they ever have any other questions? 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: First I recommend going to the website I mentioned, Beljanski dot org. But, I'm pretty easy to reach, as I'll give you my email address. It's John, j o h n at beljanski dot org. 

Victor Dwyer: Okay, 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Please. And if you gentlemen out there have questions, don't hesitate to shoot me an email, see if I can provide some answers for you.

Victor Dwyer: Cool. Thank you for all the knowledge that you provided, Dr. John. Thank you everyone for watching, the people that got this far. This is The Beljanski Cancer Talk Show and we'll catch you next time. Thanks, guys! 

Dr. John Hall, PhD: Thank you.